Why middle/end game isn't fun.

[Injeru]

As as been mentioned many times in E! etc - a new shard(s) does not fix some of the problems with in Egypt. It only gives an option to play on a different server with (perhaps) different rules - like T4B will have all techs open where T4A we have to work to open techs.

Just a quick comment here, and not picking on you Shu. I've been seeing this misconception quite a lot, and I wanted to clear it up. As I understand it, all techs will not, in fact, be automatically open at the beginning. Instead, all the techs will be "openable" from the start: as in, they'll be coded, they'll be finished, they'll just be waiting for the players to get to open them. This is a difference from some of the experiences we've had so far in T4, where the players have been ready to proceed with research but have had to wait for the devs to finish coding one thing or another before work could proceed.

This, incidentally, is what people have been referring to when they talk about a new shard being "player driven." The players set the pace of research, advancement, and test openings, without having to wait on the devs to finish anything.

Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong about any of this.

-Injeru

[inambaguum]

Just a quick comment here, and not picking on you Shu. I've been seeing this misconception quite a lot, and I wanted to clear it up. As I understand it, all techs will not, in fact, be automatically open at the beginning. Instead, all the techs will be "openable" from the start: as in, they'll be coded, they'll be finished, they'll just be waiting for the players to get to open them. This is a difference from some of the experiences we've had so far in T4, where the players have been ready to proceed with research but have had to wait for the devs to finish coding one thing or another before work could proceed.

This, incidentally, is what people have been referring to when they talk about a new shard being "player driven." The players set the pace of research, advancement, and test openings, without having to wait on the devs to finish anything.

Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong about any of this.

I believe that this is correct. And this is the one thing that actually does appeal to me about the new shard -- I've always felt that the Stranger's challenge to build 7 monuments (or whatnot) lacks credibility, since our ability to do so in the (highly variable) time allotted is more dependent on test/tech release schedule than our own efforts. Too bad it won't be like that for T5 when it actually matters.

[Alicesmile]

I agreed whole heartily with many of the points raised here about issues in ATITD that hold the game back.

I do not think that the new shard is being introduced to fix any of these problems or even to increase the population. You see, Teppy is not what we call a ‘starter-finisher’. He is interested in the new and exciting and the new shard provides this. This behaviour can be seen in the way many tests and events are released at the beginning of the tale and then fizzle out. Bugs hang around for ages, laws are never passed and did someone say mortuary temples?

I doubt many of the problems will ever be addressed and the new shard will absorb the attention of Teppy and eGenesis to the point that the old shards become even more neglected.

[riazzia]

Waves to Yendor! Going into tale 4 . Now I know why you hated levels so much. Guess for me starting 6 months into tale 3 , it wasn't that big of deal to do levels , everything was new to me , But now , sighs ..chasing down cicadas , and other critters is the last thing I want to do. I think this is why some of the older players leave , they have a been there done that sort of attitude.
I am really not sure why teppy wants new shards. I never thought this game was a money issue to him , but more of just a hobby. Does he really want more people to play his game , or does he just want to set it up in a way that he can walk away from it for a few months ? I am kinda thinking it is the later, and he doesnt want to be bothered with it anymore.

I copied this from the ENN chat when teppy talked about the player base , and attracting new players .


There's this odd result from sociology called "Dunbar's Number" - go ahead and look it up on Wikipedia... But it (and some related numbers) basically says that the size of groups are "quantized"... Depending on the type of group, something in human nature causes it to be 12 people, or 50 people, or 250, or 2500. Most of the real life groups that I've been involved in have been right about 12 people. And I think the 250 number is the size that tribes tend to be, before they split apart.

Keko: i think 300 or 400 players active and others mule and inactive paids

Teppy: It may in fact be 250. Again, hard to measure "real" accounts as opposed to mules, people who log in to socialize but not really "play", etc.

So if you believe in the Dunbar's Number hypothesis - the idea of a new telling of Tale 4, or Tal;e 5, starting every 3 months may be a way to grow the overall size of the ATITD community.

You got to give it to Teppy ... He does know his numbers . I do have a lot of respect for the man. But..you know there is always a but : ) I and we are not numbers. I think all of us need to hear that from him right now , we want some sort of recognition from him that we are more than just a number.
I praise this game in so many ways as most of us have. WE have created more than a game , we have a family. We fight , we cry , we laugh. We have worked together every day struggling to reach goals , and we have formed some strong bonds in this game . I don't think teppy understands that when we talk about splitting shards , in essence he is talking about coming in and splitting up a family. This is why some of us are upset. Some do take this personal , and teppy doesn't seem to understand that. * starts to picture teppy as a social worker going into the Duggers home and saying .. well 18 doesn't work , we are going to split you in half , 9 is a better number , now you can make more * jk : ) I think teppy needs to give us a group hug , and listen to us. I still dont know the reason behind the splitting , it cant be to attract new players, I started later into tale 3 , and still managed to accomplish a few things and have a lot of fun with the game , It didnt matter that Pam had all the clay spots , I still passed funary , thanks to lindie and Balth. and the great folks at the goods. I never had gold or antimony, but I made do, spouse became Oracle of Arch, me Oracle of body . I had a lot of fun with it. I know of others that came into the game late , and still managed to accomplish a lot . Most of us already know this , but..why I am thinking they want new shards to attract new players , so they have resources ? Is that the only reason ? They want to bring back old players who left , and refuse to come back in the middle due to lack of resources ? or is just everyone sick of listening to Orrin run his mouth ? jk : )
Every player in this game is important, each person has something to offer , which is most of the time is overlooked. One of the best things that happened to me in tale 3 , was the octecs and the crawlers . I had always played this game with the attitude that I don't want handout from others, that I needed to be self sufficiant , and if I asked for help I was weak. Apophis and his octecs changed that , made me rethink a lot of things about myself , and my perspective. For the first time in the game last telling , I needed the help of newbs , I couldnt produce enough octecs to run the forge , that belonged to rym , and get the tech opened , not to mention building 25 crawlers for that pyramid. I was at a lose , threw a huge temper tantrum , threw laptop across room.. when I found out it could only be made by getting zapped from lightening. I was thinking I was going to have to create several accounts , just to finish this pyramid. I was so frustrated . But I was determined to see that pyramid built , after all , all the blocks were up , just sitting on the ground , and there was no way I could push all of them. I began asking for help from new players , I started helping them to build obelisk..., getting there initiations done , doing whatever I could , even offering to pay them , if they would help me make octecs . To my surprise , the majority of these new players , wanted nothing in return when I told them what the octecs was going to be used for. They had nothing in the game , some still working with flimsy brick racks , and yet they gave of their time to help. I was really taken back by their generosity. When the tech was opened thanks to them , I made sure to announce it in E! Here it is , one of the more expensive techs in the game , and the new players are the ones that did it . When the crawlers were built , I invited them all to come and play with them , They sure are fun : ) . and when that pyramid finally went up , I made a sign , and on it , I dedicated it to them. It opened my eyes , and I can never thank you enough for that Apophis , maybe it wasn't intentional , but you gave me a new perspective on life and people, and that it doesnt make you weak to ask for help , and everyone has something to offer.
I am sure I am not the only one with a story on how this game has effected their real life , hell I know some of you have met your current spouses in this game . So when teppy starts talking numbers , he needs to understand that we do take it personal , and this is a second family to some of us . What we want most of all is to be heard. and not just talked too.
If you still reading this winded post , thanks : ) . I think with all that being said , teppy could learn a lesson too , about asking for help , He has a great resource to pull from , US : ) We know what is wrong with the game , as far as coding we do need help in that area , as some things just wont be possible to code. , we have some great ideas for improvement, and events that could be done , If he wants it player driven , then let the players have a say . We could build a great game. But splitting us , just might not be the cure all . Its gonna take a little more.

[ModeSix]

Does anyone have any plans to start a research guild on the new shard? Is anyone doing planning anywhere?

[Zomboe]

I'd come and check out the new shard if the map was 10 times smaller. Maybe 2 or 3 regions.

Might as well drop all material requirements by half while you're at it.

[inambaguum]

I'd come and check out the new shard if the map was 10 times smaller. Maybe 2 or 3 regions.

Might as well drop all material requirements by half while you're at it.

I've been playing the new shard the last couple of days...undecided as of yet whether I'm going to stick around, but here are the changes I've identified along those lines, if it's helpful:

-There are only three starting spots: Stillwater (Upper Egypt), Shabbat Ab (Seven Lakes), and Saqqarah (Karnak). All new players are directed to one of those three regions, and the population of each of those three regions is far greater than the population of all other regions combined at this point. It pretty much feels like there are only 3 regions right now.

-The other regions must be reached by walking right now since there are no chariots. Interestingly, only 7 regions have chariots, period. Presumably, the other 6 regions will *never* have chariots. This is going to make those regions interesting anomalies, and probably fun places for us hermits to live and hang out in.

-The following regions have (currently non-functioning) chariots: Stillwater, Shabbat Ab, Saqqarah, Queen's Retreat (Khartoum), Sinai, Heaven's Gate (VoK), Khmun (Fool's Paradise).

-The following regions do not have chariots at all: Nomad's Paradise (DoS), Falcon Bay (CotS), Meroe (Kush), Pyramid Lake (Tanis), Adn (Lower Egypt), Cat's Claw Ridge (Qatara).

-All regions have schools & universities as before.

-There are a lot of old school returners...I saw some names (like Bes, for instance) I haven't seen in a couple of tellings. No idea if they'll stick around.

-Bastest seems to be running on some old junk hardware -- probably something Teppy had sitting around the office. I'm used to client-side lag in ATITD (I've rarely seen frame rates over 20 FPS since T4 started), but I can't remember the last time I experienced significant server-side lag before Bastet. Example of what I'm talking about: growing flax, weeding a bed (animation and everything), weeding another bed, and so on for four or five beds, only to have a little lag burp and suddenly all four or five beds have snapped back into "gone to seed" mode. This has happened several times, and all I can say is I hope Teppy's planning on upgrading that hardware before we get to glory holes.


Anyway, levels are still in, I think there's still going to be a fair amount of frustration along the lines of before, and a lot of the cool people are still on T4A. That, however, I don't think will be the case for long -- I don't buy Teppy's Dunbar Hogwash. We've definitely drawn a non-trivial number of people from the first shard already...I'd guess that that will keep happening until some tipping point is reached, and then the first shard will become basically a ghost town as the majority of the remainder of its residents either come to Bastet or quit.

[Sprite]

Hi Folks,

I was curious about the state of ATiTD after the launch of the new shard, and found myself perusing the forums last night. There were a couple of notions in this conversation which caught my attention, although I admit I'm hijacking the thread to some degree. As some of you know, I was previously the art director for T4 - but I've wrapped up my work at eGenesis and as such these views should only be taken as representing my own. I'm also sipping on a martini so YMMV. =)

I see the creation of a new shard primarily as an opportunity to test new design concepts for ATiTD. I consider myself pretty lucky to have had such a free hand in the visual design of Egypt, and I'd like to share with you a couple of things I learned along the way.

After a year of getting my feet wet, I made a conscious decision to eschew other project in favor of overhauling Egypt's art assets - a process which took about 3 years. Looking back, I think I could describe the work as one of unification - I saw many discordant elements in terms of style, theme, and color palette which I attempted to resolve. For instance, did anyone notice that the sand was green and the sky purple in Tale 3?

In some cases, this process included culling out some cool pieces - which I would liked to have saved - but which didn't fit into the "big" picture. Game design is a meeting place of many separate fields - math, art, culture, imagination... to name a few. The choices often have the form of "A+B might equal C or D", "A+B changes the zero-sum relationship of C and D", and "A+B affects C and D". The nature of these problems collectively tend to multiply the solution space toward infinity - so I found myself proceeding with intuition first then integrating feedback into future efforts.

eGenesis is a small shop, and the work I released was often "riding on the seat of my pants". Time spent testing is at the cost of developing new content... so, essentially, I traded more shiny new stuff on your end for some tolerance for bugs and inconsistencies. I'd loved to have had 20 artists at my disposal to create cutting edge graphics - but the cost is nothing to wag your tail at.

At the end of the day, I'd prefer something unique and unusual as opposed to something big budget and corporate - and I think you all are here to some degree because you feel the same way. In order to keep such a venture alive, change is a constant force - avante garde if you will.

You probably know what I mean - ATiTD is singular in the sense that it shares the future development of itself with the individuals who are participating in it. Sometimes I feel that our real life society lacks that element. Maybe we're all here because we believe that things should be different, that there's still space for those who are willing to experiment!

Au revoir,
Lev

[Rabble]

Anyway, levels are still in, I think there's still going to be a fair amount of frustration along the lines of before, and a lot of the cool people are still on T4A. That, however, I don't think will be the case for long -- I don't buy Teppy's Dunbar Hogwash. We've definitely drawn a non-trivial number of people from the first shard already...I'd guess that that will keep happening until some tipping point is reached, and then the first shard will become basically a ghost town as the majority of the remainder of its residents either come to Bastet or quit.

Thanks for all the info about the map, etc. I wonder if the changes on Bastet will eventually work their way to T5. Or if Teppy will eventually add chariot stops to the missing regions. Remember, HG on 4A didn't have a CS until many months elapsed.

As for which server lasts, my completely unscientific guess is that both servers will struggle along until T5 appears.

New servers always pull a lot of people at first. But eventually most people return to their home servers since life is easier there. It's all too tempting to switch back to servers with established characters, equipment, guilds etc as those resources allow players to minimize the parts of the game they dislike and focus on the parts they enjoy. In fact, in all the other games I've played, the long term residents of the new servers wound up being the ones who didn't have characters on the old servers -- either because they were new to the game or hadn't played in years and years.

[DisShovel_Bastet]

Bastet is up to around 250 paid now. Lets say that gets to 300 or so. If the typical 50% drop hits in a few months, it will be pretty dead. Time will tell.