Orrin Thistle Talk - Revision history

Dagny at 21:33, 21 November 2009

2009-11-21T21:33:51Z

Dagny at 21:32, 21 November 2009

2009-11-21T21:32:16Z

Dagny at 21:20, 21 November 2009

2009-11-21T21:20:49Z

Dagny at 20:54, 21 November 2009

2009-11-21T20:54:14Z

Dagny at 20:45, 21 November 2009

2009-11-21T20:45:58Z

Dagny at 20:31, 21 November 2009

2009-11-21T20:31:23Z

Dagny: New page: '''Orrin:''' right, does everyone have a copy of it now? '''Tammie:''' i do '''Orrin:''' right '''Orrin:''' There are no night-time voids right now '''Orrin:''' so let's have a basic r...

2009-11-21T20:27:41Z

New page: '''Orrin:''' right, does everyone have a copy of it now? '''Tammie:''' i do '''Orrin:''' right '''Orrin:''' There are no night-time voids right now '''Orrin:''' so let's have a basic r...

New page

'''Orrin:''' right, does everyone have a copy of it now?

'''Tammie:''' i do

'''Orrin:''' right

'''Orrin:''' There are no night-time voids right now

'''Orrin:''' so let's have a basic runthrough

'''Orrin:''' when you open it, there should be a grey table, two yellow ones, and a green column

'''Orrin:''' The grey table is where you put in the clicks for dung/Sp/Water/Oxy, and the sun Level

'''Orrin:''' let's start off basic, and add 3 water and oxy

'''Orrin:''' On the Tick0 row, add them in under their respective columns

'''Orrin:''' you should see the yellow boxes change

'''Orrin:''' they are telling you what is there at each tick

'''Orrin:''' the left yellow box tells you the Dung/Sp/Water/Oxy/Sun levels at that tick, and the right one tells you the nutrient levels

'''Orrin:''' if you look at the small box with the red header, right at the bottom, that's the output

'''Orrin:''' B+F+ atm, that's 'standard' outpu

'''Orrin:''' now the green column

'''Orrin:''' This is a binary system, if you put in '1' it means the reaction happens. Put in 0, the reaction doesn't

'''Orrin:''' so, to demonstrate, find the '1' beside the '10 Nia -> 30 fol' entry, and change that to a 0

'''Orrin:''' that means now that the conversion of 10 Nia to 30 Fol is 'Voided'

'''Orrin:''' You can see now on both the yellow, right hand sheet, that fol is now 39, as opposed to 99, and Thi is now 99

'''Orrin:''' The small red-topped box has also changed to reflect that

'''Orrin:''' B+F~T+

'''Orrin:''' So that's the basics of the Thistle Sim

'''Orrin:''' Any questions before I move on to working out recipes?

'''Wampak:''' will the working out recipies also cover finding out what the voids are?

'''blondie:''' can we get a log of this chat?

'''Orrin:''' Log: no, blame teppy and the guy that stole P! off of me xD

'''Orrin:''' Wampak: that will be all the way at the end

'''Wampak:''' k

'''Dagny:''' i'll try to keep copying the chat and put up on wiki later

'''Orrin:''' ok

'''Tammie:''' will you make yourself available for questions at another time for those of us that can't stay for the entire session? i have to leave in 10 minutes so i'm gonna miss out on the rest of it

'''Orrin:''' for you dear, I'm always available

'''Tammie:''' yay ty

'''Hanid:''' I will try to copy it and put it up somewhere

'''Orrin:''' Yeh, feel free to drop me a chat, just be aware it might be Ary logged in as me, I try and answer new chats as they come

'''ShuoftheFieryHeat:''' im sorry I missed the chat - but that last zip download crashed my system

'''Orrin:''' And for those of you with problems like Shu, get yourself a mac....

'''ShuoftheFieryHeat:''' I got a working copy of the excel from firegolem - I would guess its not a windows problem but the download is not being encoded as binary - more of a wiki problem

'''Orrin:''' no, it's a problem with your computer

'''Orrin:''' and unless the wiki has quantum mechanics, it know nthing other than binary ;)

'''Hanid:''' Orrin, did you already talk about finding voids before I stumbled in to Fun

'''ShuoftheFieryHeat:''' anyway mute point - got the SS now thanks
'''
ShuoftheFieryHeat:''' nope - I download junk all the time but from the T4 wiki - sometimes it doesnt work - I get stuff from all over just fine thank you

'''Orrin:''' nope Hanid

'''Orrin:''' (sec, gotta land on the wall again)

'''Hanid:''' Oh goo

'''Aryballa:''' if its me logged in as Orrin I typically don't read the chats in case they are private...but the real orrin will answer when he logs on

'''Orrin:''' so your chats to me are safe Tammie ;D

'''Orrin:''' Alright

'''Orrin:''' This next bit is the harder bit

'''Orrin:''' Change that '0' back to a '1'

'''Orrin:''' I'm going to attempt making F~N+P+T-, note attempt ;)

'''Hanid:''' I would rather you made A+F-N+P-T+ roflmao

'''Orrin:''' Ok, I'll try it ;)

'''Orrin:''' Ah no I wont, Asc is a sun thing

'''Orrin:''' Dont have sun voids yet

'''Hanid:''' just kidding anyway

'''Spooner:''' my brain has a void

'''Orrin:''' ok, so if we look at the top of the right side yellow column...

'''Orrin:''' the one that deals with the nutrients

'''Orrin:''' It looks like there's a conversion to bio, car and nia

'''Orrin:''' However, lesson #1

'''Orrin:''' Void the Nit->Asc reaction (that green column remember?)

'''Orrin:''' Notice that the Nia goes? That's because the Nit is being converted to Asc, then through reactions to Nia.

'''Orrin:''' This is very very important. Reactions happen in the order that they are in on the sheet.

'''Orrin:''' So first off, Nit is converted to Asc

'''Orrin:''' Then, that Asc is converted to Nia *In the Same Tick*

'''Orrin:''' I wanna make sure everyone follows that

'''Orrin:''' any questions?

← Older revision		Revision as of 21:33, 21 November 2009
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	'''Hanid:''' Thanks so so so much for your patience		'''Hanid:''' Thanks so so so much for your patience
		+
		+	'''Orrin:''' here conludes the lesson.

← Older revision		Revision as of 21:32, 21 November 2009
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	'''Orrin:''' Asc is being converted away at 20/cycle, yet 20 or more per cycle is being created		'''Orrin:''' Asc is being converted away at 20/cycle, yet 20 or more per cycle is being created
		+
		+	'''Orrin:''' (I think I may ahve misread on the void reqs, but it's a good example)
		+
		+	'''Orrin:''' You can see Asc climbing
		+
		+	'''Hanid:''' so if you can create a scenario with a plus mark in "Active" there is no void there?
		+
		+	'''Orrin:''' correct
		+
		+	'''Orrin:''' So long as the farm and sim agree, there is likely to be no void
		+
		+	'''Orrin:''' There's always a chance that a void elsewhere is making it look the same, but usually it becomes obvious later on
		+
		+	'''Hanid:''' I am not seeing pluses on Nia>Thi
		+
		+	'''Orrin:''' nope, because there is no situation in which that woiuld happen.
		+
		+	'''Orrin:''' You must create one in which that conversion would happen, then do it on a farm. If they agree, there is no void.
		+
		+	'''Hanid:''' so If I voided out all other thi> conversions I might see it?
		+
		+	'''Orrin:''' No, all other Nia conversions.
		+
		+	'''Orrin:''' Or have enough Nia for Nia->Thi to happen
		+
		+	'''Orrin:''' and have less than 49 water
		+
		+	'''Hanid:''' sorry that is what I meant
		+
		+	'''Hanid:''' So if you have 99 Nia you might be able to get Nia>Fol first then Nia>Thi?
		+
		+	'''Orrin:''' yes
		+
		+	'''Orrin:''' conversions to Thi happen last in the line, so there must be enough left by then to do the conversion
		+
		+	'''Hanid:''' woot
		+
		+	'''Hanid:'''I finally am getting it
		+
		+	'''Orrin:''' Glad I could help :)
		+
		+	'''Hanid:''' Thanks so so so much for your patience

← Older revision		Revision as of 21:20, 21 November 2009
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	'''Orrin:''' Try it and see		'''Orrin:''' Try it and see
		+
		+	'''Orrin:''' You see that only 20 gets created, and then it stops. That's because adding that 5 killed the feedback that was keeping Thi there
		+
		+	'''Hanid:''' orrin, with no voids and lots of C occurring, why won't it convert to T when O is below 49?
		+
		+	'''Orrin:''' It is converting!
		+
		+	'''Orrin:''' Take out the reaction, see what happens
		+
		+	'''Orrin:''' But nearer the end, it falls victim to Asc. Remember what I said about the order of reactions?
		+
		+	'''Hanid:''' I see
		+
		+	'''Orrin:''' What's happening is the Car is getting converted to Asc
		+
		+	'''Orrin:''' Then the Thi is getting converted to 20 Car, which then leads 10 Car to be converted to 20 Thi, leaving 10 Car each
		+	time
		+
		+	'''Orrin:''' The car is getting used and replaced, it's not just 'there'
		+
		+	'''Hanid:''' But I don't know how to force more coversion, so block Asc?
		+
		+	'''Orrin:''' Yup, we'd block Asc
		+
		+	'''Hanid:''' but you can't block it because they are the same <49
		+
		+	'''Orrin:''' You got it :)
		+
		+	'''Orrin:''' You can take a look without it though, void the car->asc and see
		+
		+	'''Orrin:''' but, because of the way it happens, if you block Asc for one 'round' the reserve builds up, so the next cycle it stabilises at 30, then wait for Thi->Car to restart, do it again, stabilise at 50...
		+
		+	'''Hanid:''' mostly it jumped F
		+
		+	'''Orrin:''' This is why Thistle recipes are not just 'throw it in and it'll work'
		+
		+	'''Orrin:''' This is why Thistle recipes are not just 'throw it in and it'll work'
		+
		+	'''Orrin:''' The whole argument over why people charge for recipes, I think you're seeing why now, it's not simple
		+
		+	'''Orrin:''' The best way to learn is just to play around with it. Going to leave the tutorial on recipe creation there for now.
		+
		+	'''Orrin:''' Now to finding voids.
		+
		+	'''Orrin:''' We know (from ephemere that all night voids are present. SO any void that there is will rely on sun.
		+
		+	'''Orrin:''' Along the very bottom of the sheet there are some buttons
		+
		+	'''Orrin:''' Find the one that says 'Active' and click it
		+
		+	'''Orrin:''' Find the one that says 'Active' and click it
		+
		+	'''Orrin:''' To get back to the main sheet, click 'Master'
		+
		+	'''Orrin:''' You should see a table with a set of + marks
		+
		+	'''Orrin:''' a + mark denotes that a reaction happens here.
		+
		+	'''Orrin:''' You can see the Thi->Car and Car-> Thi feedback very easily here, those two big lines
		+
		+	'''Orrin:''' Need to wait a few more minutes to the sun to get past 79
		+
		+	'''Hanid:''' Can you explain how to use the feedbacks
		+
		+	'''Orrin:''' ehmmm, not more than I have really...
		+
		+	'''Orrin:''' It's basically making 10 of something go to more of something, then that something must become more of the thing that was used to create it at the end of a cycle
		+
		+	'''Orrin:''' So long as the 10 that is converted to say 20, you must get more than 5 of it back
		+
		+	'''Hanid:''' How do you move things without disrupting things you want
		+
		+	'''Orrin:''' That's the trick of it, you have to learn/look at what affects what
		+
		+	'''Orrin:''' right, sun is 80+ now
		+
		+	'''Orrin:''' So, if we start a farm off with the sun open, 3 clicks of water and Oxy
		+
		+	'''Orrin:''' We can put '99' in the sun column in the spreadsheet, since there are no voids that require sun >80
		+
		+	'''Orrin:''' We then must compare the output of the farm to that of the spreadsheet
		+
		+	'''Orrin:''' There are no differences. So we mark the lines with +'s in them with a symbol, I use A
		+
		+	'''Orrin:''' Then we convert the Pyr to something, let's try Nia. Add 4 clicks of Water.
		+
		+	'''Orrin:''' Do the same on the farm
		+
		+	'''Orrin:''' No differences
		+
		+	'''Orrin:''' Note that there was a limited feedback there. Pyr has gone up, but we didnt add any dung or saltpeter
		+
		+	'''Orrin:''' The other sunlight reaction to test is Car->Pyr
		+
		+	'''Orrin:''' But if we look at our 'Active' sheet, we see that we've already done it
		+
		+	'''Orrin:''' So we're left with asc->Thi
		+
		+	'''Orrin:''' TO make this happen, we need either enough Asc that it can be converted by other reactions and there is still some left by the time it gets to converting to Thi, or stop all other Asc conversions
		+
		+	'''Orrin:''' So start a new farm, and shut the lid. This creates Fol
		+
		+	'''Orrin:''' remember to add the all importnat 3 click water/oxy at Tick 0
		+
		+	'''Orrin:''' then on the sim, open the sun to 99 at tick 16
		+
		+	'''Orrin:''' 16 is merely a point where the values are stable
		+
		+	'''Orrin:''' You see now that we have entered another feedback cycle
		+
		+	'''Orrin:''' Asc is being converted away at 20/cycle, yet 20 or more per cycle is being created

← Older revision		Revision as of 20:54, 21 November 2009
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	'''Orrin:''' Bio is useless, once it is there you can't get rid of it		'''Orrin:''' Bio is useless, once it is there you can't get rid of it
		+
		+	'''Sashagirl:''' Mine is asking for A+B+P~T~
		+
		+	'''Orrin:''' Wait for the right voidset
		+
		+	'''Orrin:''' ok
		+
		+	'''Sashagirl:''' oh ok or hope someone has 1 thistle of it to rest it
		+
		+	'''Hanid:''' I guess that is the real answer, don't fight the Void Gods
		+
		+	'''blondie:''' how do we know what the current voids are?
		+
		+	'''Orrin:''' Later blondie! Usually just /info Ephemere
		+
		+	'''Hanid:''' LOL
		+
		+	'''Hanid:''' ephemere
		+
		+	'''Hanid:''' rocks
		+
		+	'''Orrin:''' Right....
		+
		+	'''Orrin:''' Pyr is relatively easy to create
		+
		+	'''Orrin:''' We can convert 10 fol to 20 pyr
		+
		+	'''Orrin:''' THe trick is going to be creating Nia
		+
		+	'''Orrin:''' Or more accurately, keeping the Nia we make there.
		+
		+	'''Orrin:''' With water lower than 59, it gets converted away to Fol
		+
		+	'''Orrin:''' Lower than 49, it goes to Thi
		+
		+	'''Orrin:''' So we need to ensure water is always greater than 59
		+
		+	'''Orrin:''' So, we pick a tick where the buildup has stopped happening, say Tick 17
		+
		+	'''Orrin:''' and Add in 5 clicks of water. That should make sure it stays right?
		+
		+	'''Sashagirl:''' Yes
		+
		+	'''Orrin:''' Try it and see

← Older revision		Revision as of 20:45, 21 November 2009
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	'''Dagny:''' http://www.atitd.org/wiki/tale4/Orrin_Thistle_Talk		'''Dagny:''' http://www.atitd.org/wiki/tale4/Orrin_Thistle_Talk
		+
		+	'''Orrin:''' Yes Blondie
		+
		+	'''Hanid:''' Thanks Dagny
		+
		+	'''Orrin:''' nothing much happens until tick 6, then it gets interesting
		+
		+	'''Orrin:''' At tick 6, the water level is low enough for the Nia from the Nit->Asc->Nia conversion to get turned into Fol.
		+
		+	'''Orrin:''' Then at tick 7, it happens again, but because there's not 10 Nia to convert, it just converts what it has at 1:3 ratio
		+
		+	'''blondie:''' are we still making the daily voids on nit to asc 0 or 1?
		+
		+	'''Orrin:''' so the 3 Nia left becomes 9 Fol
		+
		+	'''Orrin:''' All at 1
		+
		+	'''Hanid:''' OK
		+
		+	'''Orrin:''' But that's the end of Fol. Fol will now do nothing unless we add light, or Oxy
		+
		+	'''Orrin:''' at tick 7, you also notice that the Car has turned to Thi
		+
		+	'''Orrin:''' now, because Thi is at the end of the list of conversions, it doesn't get immediately 'reacted'. It has to wait for the next tick
		+
		+	'''Orrin:''' here we come to the basis of all good recipes. Feedback Reactions
		+
		+	'''Orrin:''' Here, Car has turned to Thi at a ration of 1:2
		+
		+	'''Orrin:''' Here, Car has turned to Thi at a ration of 1:2
		+
		+	'''Orrin:''' But you see that Thi can also turn to Car at a ration of 1:2
		+
		+	'''Orrin:''' so for every 1 Car, 2 Thi is created, which then turns into 4 Car, which then turns into 8 Thi etc etc
		+
		+	'''Hanid:''' this is the part I have trouble with
		+
		+	'''Orrin:''' Ok, let's go over this in a little more detail
		+
		+	'''Orrin:''' Each reaction has a condition which must be met before it happens
		+
		+	'''Orrin:''' you can see them, and the ratios, next to the green Void column
		+
		+	'''Orrin:''' For Car to be turned to Thi, there must be less than 49 Oxygen
		+
		+	'''Orrin:''' For Thi to become Car, there must be less than 39 water. These two do not exclude each other, so both can happen together
		+
		+	'''Hanid:''' sometimes it is a one way street
		+
		+	'''Orrin:''' Correct. Let's look at Asc.
		+
		+	'''Orrin:''' Fol->Asc happens when sun >69
		+
		+	'''Orrin:''' But there's no direct conversion for Asc to turn back to Fol. In fact, all that will happen as you create Asc this way is that it will turn to Bio if your water is less than 29
		+
		+	'''Hanid:''' sigh
		+
		+	'''Orrin:''' so if you want to keep your Asc, keep water >29 ;)
		+
		+	'''Sashagirl:''' ok now how do you get the PY in with the TH
		+
		+	'''Orrin:''' We look for a reaction that uses Thi, Car or Fol. There are no Fol ones, so we look for Car or Thi
		+
		+	'''Orrin:''' Bio is useless, once it is there you can't get rid of it

@@ Line 82: / Line 82: @@
 '''ShuoftheFieryHeat:''' anyway mute point - got the SS now thanks
 '''
-ShuoftheFieryHeat:''' nope - I download junk all the time but from the T4 wiki - sometimes it doesnt work - I get stuff from all over just fine thank you
+'''ShuoftheFieryHeat:''' nope - I download junk all the time but from the T4 wiki - sometimes it doesnt work - I get stuff from all over just fine thank you
 '''Orrin:''' nope Hanid
@@ Line 136: / Line 136: @@
 '''Orrin:''' any questions?