User:Numaris/Thistle Notes - Revision history

Numaris: /* Reset Thistle */

2009-11-23T18:23:45Z

Reset Thistle

Numaris: /* Mass-Producible Thistle */

2009-11-23T18:22:14Z

Mass-Producible Thistle

Numaris: /* Tips and Strategies */

2009-11-22T20:51:57Z

Tips and Strategies

Numaris: /* Tips and Strategies */

2009-11-22T19:46:42Z

Tips and Strategies

Numaris at 19:39, 22 November 2009

2009-11-22T19:39:19Z

Numaris: /* Introduction */

2009-11-22T18:40:59Z

Introduction

Numaris: /* Introduction */

2009-11-22T18:40:37Z

Introduction

Numaris: /* Introduction */

2009-11-22T18:36:56Z

Introduction

Numaris at 18:13, 22 November 2009

2009-11-22T18:13:02Z

Numaris at 18:02, 22 November 2009

2009-11-22T18:02:02Z

@@ Line 156: / Line 156: @@
 ==== Reset Thistle ====
-For "harder" thistle requests (which unfortunately are a fairly high percentage of them, in most people's estimation), your strategy changes. Since requests don't change until they're satisfied by adding at least 1 thistle, in order to change a hard request, you'll need to generate a "reset" or "bailout" thistle. For reset thistle, the above attributes go out the door. Since you only need to make one batch of the thistle, you can use all the tools at your disposal to generate it.
+For "harder" thistle requests (which unfortunately are a fairly high percentage of them, in most people's estimation), your strategy changes. Since requests don't change until they're satisfied by adding at least 1 thistle, in order to change a hard request, you'll need to generate a "reset" or "bailout" thistle. For reset thistle, the above restrictions go out the door. Since you only need to make one batch of the thistle, you can use all the tools at your disposal to generate it.
 === Stage 1: Kick-Starting Your Thistle ===

@@ Line 153: / Line 153: @@
 * '''Cheap'''. If you're making a large quantity of thistles, you don't want your recipe to cost any Dung or Saltpeter to make, therefore you'll try to avoid adding Nit and Pot.
 * '''Easy'''. Easy is a vague term, but basically what you're going for is to try to put as much distance as possible between the ticks in which you have to do work. If there are at least 4-5 ticks between any 2 given ticks of "work" in a thistle recipe, you'll be able to work a ''lot'' of Thistle Gardens at the same time, which means quick generation of lots of thistle.
 ==== Reset Thistle ====

← Older revision		Revision as of 20:51, 22 November 2009
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	=== Stage 1: Kick-Starting Your Thistle ===		=== Stage 1: Kick-Starting Your Thistle ===
−	Ok, so if we're going to try to generate thistle without adding Nit or Pot, how do we ~~get it started~~? Thankfully, each batch of thistle starts with a "freebie" 50 Nit and Pot, and we can make good use of that.	+	Ok, so if we're going to try to generate thistle without adding Nit or Pot, how do we inject our first nutrients into the system? Thankfully, each batch of thistle starts with a "freebie" 50 Nit and Pot, and we can make good use of that.
		+
		+	The most common way to get a batch started is using the Pot->Car conversion. It requires Oxy>69, so hitting the Oxy button once is sometimes enough to get started. In practice, though, most of the time you'll need to also hit H2O once, otherwise Car->Asc and Asc->Bio will sink away your Car before it can do anything useful. Play around with the Tick 0 values for H2O and Oxy until you can see some nutrients being generated long-term.
		+
		+	When Pot->Car is voided, starting your thistle recipe is more difficult, but not impossible. Try playing around with other Nit->* and Pot->* conversions and see what else you can come up with.
		+
		+	=== Stage 2: Generating Nutrients with Cycles ===
		+	You've just injected a very small amount of nutrient into your batch, but you'll need lots more to realize your final outcome. The way to do that is to harness the power of conversion cycles. A cycle is a set of conversions that, when applied in turn, can turn a small amount of nutrient into a larger amount of the same nutrient, often creating other nutrients in the process. By repeating the cycle, we build up nutrients in the system.
		+
		+	==== The Car-Thi Cycle ====
		+	The simplest example of a cycle is also the most important. The Car-Thi cycle is used in virtually all mass-producible thistle recipes to generate nutrients. It consists of the two conversions Car->Thi and Thi->Car. Since the conversions are active during low values of H2O and Oxy, once you get this cycle started, you can just sit back and watch it go.
		+
		+	When either Car->Thi or Thi->Car are voided, it's a good time to take a few days off and do something else for a while.
		+
		+	==== The Fol-Pyr-Nia Cycle ====
		+	Another example of a cycle involves the three reactions Fol->Pyr, Pyr->Nia, and Nia->Fol. This cycle is much more hands-on, so it's mostly used in reset thistle recipes to generate some Nia. It requires high Oxy, and an oscillation of H2O between >69 and <59. Watch out for the Pyr->Bio conversion... it can make this cycle unsustainable if you're not careful about your Oxy level.
		+
		+	==== Other Cycles: Be Creative ====
		+	Necessity is the mother of invention, as they say. If you're trying to generate a reset thistle and your usual avenues aren't available due to voids, see what else you can come up with. There are plenty of possibilities that may not work most of the time, but are exposed when certain voids line up.
		+
		+	=== Stage 3: Routing the Nutrients to Their Final Homes ===

@@ Line 135: / Line 135: @@
 The ThistleSim spreadsheet is available in [[:Image:ThistleSim.zip|MS Excel]] and [[:Image:ThistleSimOO.zip|OpenOffice Calc]] formats. Operation is simple.
 * In the green column to the right, enter a "0" for any conversions that are currently voided, and a "1" for the rest.
-* In the gray table to the left, enter the number of presses of each button in each tick. The yellow tables in between will show you the progression of the inputs and nutrients for the resulting thistle.
+* In the gray table to the left, enter the number of presses of each button in each tick (or the sun value in the Sun column). The yellow tables in between will show you the progression of the inputs and nutrients for the resulting thistle.
 ==== Talos's Thistle Garden Simulator ====
@@ Line 158: / Line 158: @@
 === Stage 1: Kick-Starting Your Thistle ===

← Older revision		Revision as of 19:39, 22 November 2009
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	There are usually folks who test for voids each Egypt week and post them in their in-game info for the public. As of this writing, me ([[User:Numaris\|Numaris]]) and Ephemere are hosting voids in our info.		There are usually folks who test for voids each Egypt week and post them in their in-game info for the public. As of this writing, me ([[User:Numaris\|Numaris]]) and Ephemere are hosting voids in our info.
		+
		+	== Tips and Strategies ==
		+
		+	So now you have a vague understanding of the system that drives thistles, but you're still left not having any clue where to start. In this section, I hope to give you a push in the right direction.
		+
		+	=== Simulators ===
		+	If we had no other way to make thistles than to load up the gardens and try a recipe, it would be excruciating. Thankfully, a few folks out there have designed tools we can use to simulate a thistle garden and generate recipes much, much more easily. There are two major varieties of simulator that I am aware of.
		+
		+	==== ThistleSim Spreadsheet ====
		+	The ThistleSim spreadsheet is available in [[:Image:ThistleSim.zip\|MS Excel]] and [[:Image:ThistleSimOO.zip\|OpenOffice Calc]] formats. Operation is simple.
		+	* In the green column to the right, enter a "0" for any conversions that are currently voided, and a "1" for the rest.
		+	* In the gray table to the left, enter the number of presses of each button in each tick. The yellow tables in between will show you the progression of the inputs and nutrients for the resulting thistle.
		+
		+	==== Talos's Thistle Garden Simulator ====
		+	Alternatively, [[User:Talos\|Talos]] has created a nice graphical thistle simulator in Python. It should be usable in Windows, Mac, and Linux environments. See [[User:Talos\|his user page]] for installation instructions.
		+
		+	It's more mouse-oriented than the spreadsheet. Some people find it a little slower to use, but it has some nice features, and I would encourage folks to check it out.
		+
		+	Note that the current version as of this writing, v0.3, has a couple of notable issues. First, there are rounding errors in certain situations, causing it to display a very slightly erroneous value sometimes. It doesn't throw things off significantly, but you should be aware of it in case you compare a simulated run with a real run. Second, there seems to be a problem with saving and opening thistle recipes that makes this feature unusable.
		+
		+	Now that you've got your tool of choice, we'll move on to some thistle generating tips.
		+
		+	=== Two Types of Thistle Recipes ===
		+	Thistle strategies can be divided loosely into two categories, based on how much of the thistle you plan to make.
		+
		+	==== Mass-Producible Thistle ====
		+	For "easy" thistle requests (somewhat subjective, but you'll get a feel for it with experience), you'll want to try to create a mass-producible thistle recipe that has the following attributes:
		+	* '''Cheap'''. If you're making a large quantity of thistles, you don't want your recipe to cost any Dung or Saltpeter to make, therefore you'll try to avoid adding Nit and Pot.
		+	* '''Easy'''. Easy is a vague term, but basically what you're going for is to try to put as much distance as possible between the ticks in which you have to do work. If there are at least 4-5 ticks between any 2 given ticks of "work" in a thistle recipe, you'll be able to work a ''lot'' of Thistle Gardens at the same time, which means quick generation of lots of thistle.
		+
		+	==== Reset Thistle ====
		+	For "harder" thistle requests (which unfortunately are a fairly high percentage of them, in most people's estimation), your strategy changes. Since requests don't change until they're satisfied by adding at least 1 thistle, in order to change a hard request, you'll need to generate a "reset" or "bailout" thistle. For reset thistle, the above attributes go out the door. Since you only need to make one batch of the thistle, you can use all the tools at your disposal to generate it.
		+
		+	=== Stage 1: Kick-Starting Your Thistle ===

@@ Line 11: / Line 11: @@
 * Tips/hints/strategies listed below are from my own experience. I would be very happy to hear other folks' experiences, but please use the [[User_talk:Numaris/Thistle_Notes|Discussion]] page for that, rather than creating long discussion threads on this page.
-This guide is divided into two sections. In the first, "How Thistles Work", I present the mechanics of the thistle system. This is the same information presented in several other places, put in my own words. If you're already versed in the inner workings of the system, you can skip this section. In the second, "Tips and Strategies", I'll provide you with some information that will hopefully give you a better idea of the direction to head in to get what you're looking for.
+This guide is divided into two sections. In the first, ''How Thistles Work'', I present the mechanics of the thistle system. This is the same information presented in several other places, put in my own words. If you're already versed in the inner workings of the system, you can skip this section. In the second, ''Tips and Strategies'', I'll provide you with some information that will hopefully give you a better idea of the direction to head in to get what you're looking for.
 == How Thistles Work ==

@@ Line 8: / Line 8: @@
 A few things I'd like to get out of the way beforehand:
 * '''I do not sell silk, thistles or thistle recipes.''' It can be a lot of work, and there's just too much else that I would rather be doing.
 * Tips/hints/strategies listed below are from my own experience. I would be very happy to hear other folks' experiences, but please use the [[User_talk:Numaris/Thistle_Notes|Discussion]] page for that, rather than creating long discussion threads on this page.
 == How Thistles Work ==

← Older revision		Revision as of 18:13, 22 November 2009
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	# New nutrient and catalyst levels are displayed.		# New nutrient and catalyst levels are displayed.
	After 40 ticks, the thistles are mature and can be harvested. The thistles stop growing at that point. You cannot harvest a batch early, but you can abort a batch, losing the seed in the process.		After 40 ticks, the thistles are mature and can be harvested. The thistles stop growing at that point. You cannot harvest a batch early, but you can abort a batch, losing the seed in the process.
		+
		+	=== Voids ===
		+	As if all that wasn't complex enough, there's a huge wrinkle thrown in that makes the system very dynamic and contributes to the difficulty of finding recipes for a particular requirement: voids. Each Egypt week (about 2.5 real days), a random set of nutrient conversions is voided. That is to say, the conversions are removed from the table for that week. There's no pattern to the voids (that we can tell), and there's no set number of them that happen. It's possible for there to be 8+ voids, and it's possible for there to be no voids at all. The presence of voids can completely change the nature of the cycles that allow nutrients to build up, and drastically affect the strategies.
		+
		+	There are usually folks who test for voids each Egypt week and post them in their in-game info for the public. As of this writing, me ([[User:Numaris\|Numaris]]) and Ephemere are hosting voids in our info.

← Older revision		Revision as of 18:02, 22 November 2009
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	\|}		\|}

−	Each tick~~, for each conversion~~, the system ~~will check to see if~~ the ~~condition~~ is ~~met~~. ~~If it~~ is, it ~~will remove~~ 10 ~~units~~ of the input ~~material~~. ~~If less than~~ 10 ~~units~~ are ~~available~~, ~~it will remove them all~~. ~~Then it will produce an amount of output material determined by~~ the ~~amount of input material taken, and~~ the ~~conversion ratio~~.	+	Each tick, the system runs through the following steps:
		+	# 10 Nit and 10 Pot are lost.
		+	# The conversion table is stepped through from top to bottom. Order is important... once you generate some of one nutrient, it (or up to 10 of it, anyway) will be consumed by the first reaction that uses it as an input (if the condition is met).
		+	# 10 H2O and 10 Oxy are lost.
		+	# New nutrient and catalyst levels are displayed.
		+	After 40 ticks, the thistles are mature and can be harvested. The thistles stop growing at that point. You cannot harvest a batch early, but you can abort a batch, losing the seed in the process.